beleben

die belebende Bedenkung

Le detour de France

with 6 comments

In the 1970s, before the high speed Paris Sud Est railway had opened, a train journey between Paris and Lyon took about four hours (but no change of train was needed).

Ouigo routes 2014

Ouigo routes 2014

In 2014, the principal stations for the ‘low cost’ Ouigo TGV train service between Paris and Lyon are Marne-la-Vallée and Satolas (St Exupéry). So, a Ouigo journey between Paris and Lyon must take about four hours, with two changes of train required.

The idea behind using Marne-la-Vallée (etc) must be to try to stop business people downgrading from regular TGV. Why anyone would want to replicate such a crazy arrangement in Great Britain, by building HS2, is difficult to understand.

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Written by beleben

August 15, 2014 at 11:39 am

Posted in High speed rail, HS2

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6 Responses

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  1. Do you still propose building the London terminus at either Old Oak Common or Stratford? Either case would be like using Marne-la-Vallee to get to Paris.

    The only cities served with out-of-town stations are Derby/Nottingham and Sheffield. In the former case it’s either Toton or the middle of Derby, which would disadvantage the majority of travellers who would be heading to Nottingham. The short NET extension will be complemented by electric suburban shuttles between Derby and Nottingham – these don’t need to be authorised by the Hybrid Bill and will be implemented in CP6 or CP7 by Network Rail because they’re useful with or without HS2. Sheffield is served by Meadowhall because there is no realistic alternative without incurring the expense of building both the high speed bypass at Tinsley and the route to Victoria. Even then it’s a 5 minute train journey to Midland and the city centre; hardly comparable to the 30 minutes or so on the RER from Disneyland to Gare de Lyon.

    Aside from that I don’t think you can really claim that Euston or Piccadilly aren’t good places for HS2 to terminate. In Birmingham, Curzon Street is adjacent to Moor Street and well within walking distance of the main city centre and New Street, not to mention the new tram lines that are being built to connect it. New Lane is as close to Leeds City as is practicable and the distances involved to get to the city centre are negligible. Once Phase 3 opens Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh will have their own city-centre stations for the same reasons.

    So what exactly was the point of this article? Ouigo is an experiment that won’t be possible to replicate in Britain because of the different way HS2 and the classic network interact – it’s far more like the Shinkansen network than any of the European networks.

    CautiousObserver

    August 15, 2014 at 7:41 pm

    • Do you still propose building the London terminus at either Old Oak Common or Stratford?

      I don’t propose building HS2 to Old Oak Common, Stratford, or anywhere else. Never have done.

      Either case would be like using Marne-la-Vallee to get to Paris.

      Crow-flies, Marne-la-Vallee is apparently 22 km from Paris.

      So not the same as Old Oak Common at all.

      beleben

      August 15, 2014 at 8:53 pm

      • Well then, isn’t it lucky that there’s no worry about going to a London Marny-the-Valley station?

        CautiousObserver

        August 16, 2014 at 8:17 am

      • When the French high speed service started, in the early 1980s, it was Perrache to Gare-de-Lyon. The exurban stations used by Ouigo didn’t exist. Nor did the Resa fare supplements now imposed on the users of regular TGVs.

        The base HS2 Y network proposal includes at least three exurban stations (Bickenhill, Toton and Manchester airport) and it seems likely that others would follow.

        beleben

        August 16, 2014 at 8:59 am

      • The French ex-urban stations used by Ouigo are different from the sort that will be built for HS2 – you are correct, further ones will follow in Lancashire (M55 Interchange in the West Midlands to Manchester route engineering options report), West Yorkshire and the Tees Valley based upon projections about the complete Inverted A network. However, in all of these cases the network topology does not favour the sort of journeys that Ouigo performs of avoiding city centres. All HS2 services, aside possibly from start and end of service runs, will start and end in the middle of cities (especially as the Heathrow spur is most certainly dead even with a third runway). The TGV network makes it easy to use arbitrary stations as services can use all of the classic line infrastructure if needed because the high speed components aren’t almost entirely segregated from their classic network. HS2 is much more like the Shinkansen, where a Ouigo-style service is effectively impossible. This is not helped by the fact that both the Shinkansen and HS2 cores are both going to be completely full with normal full-fare InterCity services throughout most of the day, so there could not be real competition between standard and low-cost services. There may be a limited amount of competition between the HS2, ICWC and ICEC operators on shorter runs, as there is between Virgin, London Midland and Chiltern today between London and Birmingham, but on longer-distance runs, especially those to Scotland, there is going to be no real choice whatsoever. An all-stops non-tilt 110mph run between Glasgow and London via Manchester or Birmingham is not going to be particularly competitive against a limited stop high speed service with more seats and a lower operational cost.

        CautiousObserver

        August 19, 2014 at 9:55 pm

      • The French ex-urban stations used by Ouigo are different from the sort that will be built for HS2 – you are correct, further ones will follow in Lancashire (M55 Interchange in the West Midlands to Manchester route engineering options report), West Yorkshire and the Tees Valley based upon projections about the complete Inverted A network. However, in all of these cases the network topology does not favour the sort of journeys that Ouigo performs of avoiding city centres.

        Your opinion. Any evidence to back it up?

        When TGV opened, all its services were between city centres. After a while, the topology changed.

        HS2 is much more like the Shinkansen

        Not really. Shinkansen tends to overlay several types of service with different stopping patterns on the same track. HS2 could not run 18 trains per hour with such patterns. Actually, it’s doubtful whether 18 trains is feasible even with a homogenous stopping pattern.

        beleben

        August 19, 2014 at 10:32 pm


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